LadySports ::: SHOOTING WITH DEBBIE JOHNSON

by Shiai Mata

For anyone familiar with women's professional wrestling in the 1970s, the name of Debbie Johnson is immediately recognizable. She wrestled many of the biggest stars of the era, appeared in the classic 'drama-mentary,' WRESTLING QUEEN, and made history in 1972 by helping to break down the barrier against women's matches in New York City, with her memorable world title match against the Fabulous Moolah before nearly 25,000 fans at Shea Stadium.

At the height of her career, Debbie left wrestling, and hasn't looked back... until now.

In an exclusive conversation with LadySports Online, Debbie now shares her unvarnished, cut-to-the bone recollections about her years in the sport. She doesn't hesitate to assert the truth as she saw it, and to reveal her honest feelings. This is an interview that will be talked about for years to come!

GETTING STARTED

LadySports: Debbie, why don't you get us going by telling us about how you got into wrestling?

Debbie: I was born and raised in a small town just south of Louisville, Kentucky, called Fairdale. My Aunt Mary started taking me to the wrestling matches when I was about 11, and I was so fascinated by it. And the first time I saw women, I knew that's what I wanted to do. I was always kind of a tomboy type, and I thought, 'What a way to make a living... I could beat the hell out of people and get paid to do it!' I first entered into the sport at the age of 15. I was trained by Moolah at her school in Columbia, South Carolina. I trained only for two weeks, and went out for my first match! That very first match was in Mobile, Alabama, and it was a 9 girl battle royal. I remember walking out to the ring and looking around at all of the people in the arena, and all of a sudden I was terrified. I was always a little shy, and they were all looking at me!

LadySports: What led you from Kentucky to Moolah's camp?
Debbie: Actually, it was because of one of the guys who wrestled regularly in Louisville... Dennis Hall. I used to bug the hell out of the guys, and finally Dennis gave me Moolah's address and I wrote her. And she called a couple of weeks later, and off I went! She made it sound so great that I just had to go.

Little did I know what I was really getting myself into. I was so young and dumb about life in general, but I grew up very fast, and I was really good at keeping my mouth shut at first, and I listened very well, too.

I learned very fast that I had gotten into a world I knew nothing about, and was a little intimidated by it all. But I learned that if I was going to survive, I had to toughen up... fast!

LEARNING THE ROPES

LadySports: When you first began, were there any other wrestlers whom you patterned yourself after?
Debbie: No, not really. I was always kind of a rebel with my own cause... I was very unique in that I didn't want to be like anyone, I just wanted to make my own mark in the business, and be known for me, and not as anyone else.

But if I had to say that I looked up to anyone else in the wrestling world, it would have to be Penny Banner.

LadySports: So you didn't follow anyone else's ring style?
Debbie: No, I was very much my own person, and wanted to create my own style. I never planned anything, I was just a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants kinda gal... whatever felt good at the time is what I did. That's why I stayed in trouble with Moolah so much. I was famous for not following her rules.

THE FABULOUS ONE

LadySports: Let's talk about your relationship with the Fabulous Moolah, and what it was like to work for her.
Debbie: That's easy. Moolah... first of all, she was just plain evil. Never trusted her or liked her very much. She took advantage of all who worked for her, in many ways. People think it was all glamorous... Moolah managed to make a lot of people think she was some kind of goddess... but nothing could be further from the truth.

I feel it's way past time for the real truth to come out. I am not saying that everyone was treated the way I was. In fact, some were treated very well. I think part of it was because I was so young, and they thought I would always do what I was told to do. And I did for a long time, but when I saw others being treated differently from the way I was treated, it really pissed me off.

I guess that's when I started to fight back. I felt like a slave and I was treated as one. I wasn't allowed to leave the compound unless someone was with me. I was not allowed to have company on the compound, but no one else was, either. It was like a small fortress, an iron gate at the entrance, and they watched me like hawks.

I wasn't allowed to have any friends except for the other girls who were there, and I couldn't trust any of them. If I told someone something in confidence, it always got back to Moolah, and I would be dealt with for it. If I pissed her off too much, she wouldn't let me work, and that meant starving, so I had to walk on egg shells for a long time.

There is no way I can explain how awful my life was for a very long time. When it was all going on, it seemed like an eternity. But in a way, I owe Moolah and my mother a lot, because they were both very controlling and made my life a living hell... and that in turn made me the person I am today. I have worked very hard to not be like either of them.

I could never do to anyone the things that they did to me, and still today I wonder why they did it! Why did my mother seem to hate me so much? I know now why Moolah did what she did: I was one of her meal tickets, and she had to control me as long as she could.

She took 30% of everything we all made before anything else came out of our money. Then she took out our travel expenses, then food, then rent because we all... or most of us... lived on her property, and so we had to pay her rent. And she added the utilities, so I always ended up owing her more money than I made. I worked my ass off for her for almost two years before I ever had money coming to me, and the first time she paid me, I got $125.00 and I thought I was rich!

The women who worked for her made her a very wealthy person. It wasn't her talent that earned her what she had, but the talents of all of the women that worked for her. I wasn't the only one treated badly, but I think I am the only one that is willing to tell the complete truth.

The fact is that she was a user of anyone who worked for her. I hate to speak ill of the dead, but the truth is the truth. She was a bitch, plain and simple. She was one of the worst people I have ever known.

IN NAME ONLY

LadySports: One really can't talk about Debbie Johnson without mentioning another wrestler from that era, Dottie Downs. She, of course, is your mother... but things were a bit more complex than that, weren't they?
Debbie: Yes, she is my mother, but we haven't spoken in years. She is my mother and I will always respect her as such, but I don't have any contact with her. She was never a real mother... my grandmother raised me.

She was never supportive of me in anything I did. She was very much a 'ME' type of person. It was always about her. My mother had four children and gave us all away, so you can see why I don't have a lot of love for her.

She had no influence on my decision to become a wrestler. I wanted to do it, although she went to Moolah's just before I did. But she trained for nearly a year before having her first match, much longer than I did. She was older, of course, and had high blood pressure that she never took care of... that's why she is in a nursing home now, and has been since she was 49 years of age.

LadySports: With the both of you working for Moolah, did you ever have to wrestle one another?
Debbie: We did work together as a tag team only once that I remember, and worked against each other only once as well. Moolah was always very careful not to book us in the same town, but on those two occasions it happened. Dottie was afraid that the people would see us together and know we were related, as I look a lot like her... or did. I look nothing like her now.

In the match where we wrestled against each other, I busted her mouth open and she bled very well. It was NOT on purpose, but to this day she doesn't believe that.

I haven't talked to her in several years, for many reasons. My so-called mother and Moolah did some very cruel and hurtful things to me. I guess it was because I was so young, and they thought they could control me totally. But as I got older, they soon learned that I was not going to take their shit any more.

ON THE ROAD

LadySports: Where were some of the places you had wrestled?
Debbie: I worked all over the United States and Canada, and I went to Puerto Rico for six weeks once. I'd love to go back, it's a beautiful place.

I was scheduled to go to Japan in the mid-70s; I got all of the shots and all that, and a week before I was supposed to go, the trip was cancelled. I was very upset, to say the least.

LadySports: And who were some of the women you worked with?
Debbie: I faced some of the best in the business... Moolah, Paula Kaye, Peggy Patterson, Donna Christianello, Toni Rose, Lilly Thomas, the White Venus, Vivian Vachon, and many others. I fought just about everyone in that era, and I can't really say there's anyone else I can wanted to face whom I didn't. I won some and lost some, but it was always interesting, and a learning experience.

I did tag some, and if I had to pick the women that I seemed to be partnered up with the most, it would probably be Vicki Williams and Susan Green.

I usually worked as a face, but did get to heel a couple of times. But I was so used to being the 'good guy', it was a little harder for me to be the heel.

LadySports: Who would you say was your toughest opponent ever?
Debbie: I think the toughest one would be Toni Rose. She had a punch that could knock a horse out!

LadySports: Did any of your rivalries ever get down to a personal level?
Debbie: Yes, I had a few matches with Vivian Vachon that got heated, because she had worked for Moolah at one time, and had dated one of her nephews. And I was dating him later, at the time I was wrestling with Vachon, and she found out about it. From that day forward, she saw me as the enemy, so every match we had after that was SERIOUS. That's how I got my first black eye!

LadySports: Were you ever seriously injured in the ring?
Debbie: Nothing really serious. A few broken fingers, a sprained ankle, and a couple of black eyes, but that's about it.

LadySports: What were some of the other wrestlers you worked with the most like?
Debbie: Susan Green was a young dynamite type, but we were good friends. She was and still is a force to be dealt with! And Peggy Patterson was another person that I became friends with, even though we wrestled against each other many times; that was our job, but out of the ring it was difficult to make friends other than with the people you wrestled with and against. There was so much traveling involved it made it hard to make friends with the 'real' people. I was probably closest to Peggy, Susan and Paula Kaye.

LadySports: And did you ever have a bad fan encounter?
Debbie: Yes! While in Canada I was wrestling Vachon, and of course it was on her turf, so I was automatically the bad guy. And a fan kicked me right between the eyes! He left me with two big black eyes, and they hurt like hell.

THE MAIN EVENTER

LadySports: September the 30th of 1972 was the date of one of the most epic events in wrestling in t hat era, when the WWWF hosted its 'Super Card' at Shea Stadium in New York. You challenged the Fabulous Moolah for her title in the co-main event. Does that night still remain memorable for you?
Debbie: Yes... I remember it well. It was an outdoor card, and it was freezing cold... there was ice on the mat, in the ring, and it was so hard just to try to stand up! And even though the match didn't last very long, it's one that will be in my memory forever. That match without a doubt is my most memorable.

I was only the third woman in New York to wrestle after they finally opened it up to women, and that match was one of the best, even though I didn't win it. It took a lot to go out there in the cold and face the one woman in the world I wanted to beat the most.

I always believed that in a one-on-one, I could take Moolah's belt. If I could have had a match with her, no holds barred and anything goes, I know I could have beaten her.

LadySports: Did you ever get another shot at Moolah's belt after that?
Debbie: Sure I did, but it was always a given that she was to win. Moolah was not that tough... many of us could have kicked her ass, and wanted to many times. But if you pissed her off, you just didn't work for a while. She would try to starve you to make you pay if you didn't make her look good.

FROM ROOKIE TO VETERAN

LadySports: What were some of your favorite territories?
Debbie: My favorites were the South... Tennessee, Georgia, Florida. Especially if Moolah wasn't on the trip. We could be more relaxed and enjoy ourselves a lot more, you know what I mean? Let our hair down and enjoy life a little! We didn't make much money there. In fact, I remember it costing us to work in certain places many times. Statesboro, Georgia would pay us only $15.00 for the night, so it would cost us to work there (with travel, lodging and food), but it was always fun.

LadySports: At any point, did Moolah have you help train any of her students?
Debbie: I helped with some. Jan Sheridan. Susan Green, who was already very knowledgeable when she came to the compound. Rita... someone; she didn't last long. And a few more... I am terrible with names. Sheri Martel I worked with after I quit the business, but I thought she had talent so I sent her to Moolah, and she did very well there.

LE GÉANT

LadySports: You're one of the people featured in what is undoubtedly one of the most frequently published wrestling photos of the era. There's you, Christianello, Rose and Williams, all being held aloft in the arms of Andre the Giant!
Debbie: I remember well the first time I met Andre. He was the biggest man I had ever met, but also one of the sweetest and kindest men, too. It took about four or five tries to take that photo, because he was having trouble holding us up for a long period of time, so we had to stop a few times to let him rest his arms. He would squat down and we would get on, and then he would stand up with all of us on him. He didn't complain at all, but his arms would start shaking from time to time, so we would have to take a break. That's why I was holding on to a pipe on the wall... trying to take some of the weight off of him. But he was very sweet about the whole thing, and a very nice man... I always enjoyed working around him.

GETTING OUT

LadySports: You had become one of the better known women in the sport, but then you suddenly retired and disappeared from wrestling.
Debbie: I left the wrestling world when I was 19. I had married and was expecting my first child, and I just believed it was time to get on with a normal life. I didn't want my child to have to live traveling all of the time, and I wanted a more normal life, too. For the women, we had a very different position than the men did. They could stay in one place for years at a time. It wasn't that way for us... we were constantly on the road, never knowing when we would see home again. We would be out for months at a time, and I didn't want that kind of life for my family.

A lot of bad things were done to me at the hands of Moolah and my mother, and I wanted out so that I could have a real life. When I first started, I wasn't old enough to sign a contract myself, so my mother signed one for me. And at 18 when the time came to renew it, I did sign for another three years. But I didn't make it. Something very... bad... happened. I had to make some serious changes in my life in order to just have a life, and I thought the only way out was to get married. I told them I would 'marry the first swinging dick that asked'... and that's just what I did.

I married the first man that asked me. I had only known him for two weeks and been out with him once, and we were married! In my eyes, that was my only way out, so I took it. There were repercussions... Moolah tried to chase him off, but it didn't work. I know it was a very stupid thing to do, but I was so desperate to get away from them. I can't really say I'm sorry I did it, because I had two beautiful children from that marriage, and for that reason I am glad I did what I did.

I feel very blessed... I ended up with two great sons. My youngest, Kevin, died in 2000 at the age of 24 from an experimental cancer treatment. My oldest son Brian is now 32 and has grown into a wonderful man, with two great children of his own, and I am so very proud of him. Kevin left us a beautiful little girl, Grace, who is now 7 years old. He said that it was only by the grace of God that he was allowed to live long enough to see her born, but he was so worried that she would never remember him, and never know how much he loved and wanted her. I promised him she would always know he was her father, and that I would give her memories of him. So, every Christmas, she gets a gift from her daddy from Heaven.

Last year I lost my husband of 27 years, Randy. He was a step-father to my sons, but if you ask Brian today about his dad, he would tell you about Randy. He was never a step-dad, he was just a great dad.

LadySports: You left the sport with what would have to be assumed would be many successful years in the business ahead of you. Over time, have you ever been tempted to step back into the ring?
Debbie: Yes. I missed it very much. But I had children, and I wanted to spend as much time with them as I could. I have and do miss the wrestling world, but Moolah had so much control over my life that I just didn't want to live like that anymore.

LadySports: After all of these years, so you have any regrets?
Debbie: Yes and no. I think we all have things in our lives that we would change if we could, but at the same time all of those things are what make us the people we are today. And I don't think I turned out too bad.

LadySports: And what is life like for you these days?
Debbie: I'm working in the medical field, and the physician I work for has been very good to me. I think God brings people into your life just when you need them the most. I call them my angels. I do miss the wrestling world, but at my age, I don't think I would ever be able to go back to it. However, I would l ike to be involved in some way, and I am in the process of writing a book of my life as a wrestler. I hope to have it finished by the fall of this year. Whether or not it get published, I have no idea. But trust me, it's going to be dynamite!

LadySports: What's the one thing you'd like fans to most recall when they think about Debbie Johnson's career?
Debbie: One thing? Wow, that's a tough one! I guess it would be that I always gave my all to the sport... I always tried to be the very best I could be, and gave the fans my all. Or, maybe just that I was a real babe!

LadySports: Debbie, before we finish, I simply have to tell you how fun and enlightening it has been to speak with you. Thank you so much for speaking so openly and honestly with the LadySports Online fans. Is there anything else you would like to add?
Debbie: I just want to let you know how much I appreciate you doing this story. Thank you for helping me get the truth out there.

pics courtesy of Ms Johnson